It's always the bloody people that ruin a religion.

Ergo, the best religion is one with no followers.

If you read the gospels as a text full of morally provocative- not to say- cheeky statements, that's fine, but if you then try to convert them into a rule book and raise an organisation on the back of that rulebook- well, you're in exactly the sort of mess we're in at present....

This might sound awful, but of late- in both Islamic and Christian senses- 'getting religious' is almost akin to becoming mentally ill. With the aggressive recruiting some of these churches (and mosques) do, where they suck in newbies and spit out fanatics, 'getting religious' is rapidly becoming a negative thing.

In my own life and encounters, 'religious' no longer automatically means 'good'. In fact, it means quite the opposite: a warning to mind my words and watch my back. The ones who are faithful and who do not wear it on their sleeves are OK- they are confident and comfortable enough in their faith not to have to get toxic with it. Happily, I know more people who are faithful than who are religious. I hope to keep it that way.

I used "religious" as a word with positive vibes until quite recently and was perfectly happy to apply it to myself. Not any more.

I guess the "War on Terror"- which I see as religiously motivated on both sides- is the thing that has made it obnoxious to me.

It is possible for a Nazi to be cultured, but impossible for a Nazi to be a great artist.

Is this true? I should very much like it to be.

A militaristic
youth group forsooth! seems a value judgment of some sort
unless it was Hitler Youth or something which
normally did not allow church membership..
at the least there is militarism and there is 'militarism'
this last used to mean 'something which I dislike'
But I would like to think of one thing to the side
but not irrelevant to the man becoming "more religious"

It is my impression that the religion of Islam has the
particular quality of being open to ecstasy/fever...
this impression of mine may come in part from having
more contact with the Sufi brotherhoods than with day to
day Islamic life...but it is not contradicted by time
in Istanbul or by other meetings with Muslims.
"Ole" comes from the cries of "Ya Allah!" as the excitment
of God as it were passes like a wind...In Islamic writers
a tendency to aflatus...all of this has a good side and
a bad side no doubt but in trying to understand what is
going on we perhaps need to be aware not only of the good
and in this case that becoming "more religious" in the
context of Islam can mean something like "contracting a fever"
perhaps a low grade one, perhaps not so low grade...

If you wish to say you Christians are disgusting and have
the salvation army or something, fair enough...
we are all human ...for worse as well as better
but I wonder if this is not a specific quality of Islam for
better but also for worse?

rereading I should add that given the ecstasy/fever
category one could also say in a better case that in
Islam becoming more religious might be like falling
in love but I suppose the case of this man to be more
of fever if not of 'falling in hate'

Of course becoming a member of the ethical culture
society for an ethnic I dont know what laplander or something
can also be a fever...not saying fever/ecstasy is anything
other than universally human but wondering if there is not
a particularly Islamic openness to the feverish?
just to share a thought yours
+Seraphim

I hope morality and religion ARE becoming separate entities. It's the thing I find most frustrating about being an atheist; that people assume I can't have a moral core. Cos why would I be a good person if I didn't have a God telling me how to be? *bangs head against wall*

I try always to keep in mind--as a person who would, until recently, have described herself to most people as "religious", at least as a shorthand--that some of the kindest, most compassionate, most ethical people I know are also atheists.

I noticed long ago that some of the nastiest, most judgmental people attended church regularly. I really hope that did them some sort of good in the long run.

BUT, there were also some really nice people there.

You are most certainly correct, but hopefully not completely. I guess we need to see things in that light?

Note: I am really not very "religious". I believe in some of the basic philosophy but I tend to pick and choose.

I just like... good-hearted, non-violent, love thy neighbor type people!
*Am I a closet hippie?*

YOu are a good person. Isn't that what's important?

Yes indeed! And what was particularly shocking was the way the Church tried to hush things up and, in many cases, simply moved the offending priests to other posts where they were free to continue their abusing children.

"religious" people are no more to be counted on for moral behaviour than football supporters or stamp collectors or any other gang or group

Stamp collectors are particularly amoral. Profligate philatelists.

Groan.