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Tony Grist

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Rolling the Dice [Apr. 23rd, 2016|01:20 pm]
Tony Grist
No-one knows what the future holds so no-one knows whether Britain will be better off in the EU or not. Every argument meets with a counter-argument and there are ghastly people on both sides. Who do I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with, Nigel Farage or Peter Mandelson? Tough one, that.

A vote to stay is a vote for the status quo- and since I heartily dislike the status quo I'm voting to get out. I know I may come to regret this, but...

...It seems the braver thing to do.
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Comments:
From: cmcmck
2016-04-23 12:29 pm (UTC)
I have to admit that the little England crowd terrify me so much (I have a lot more to lose to xenophobic, racist, sexist bigots than most after all) that I'm voting in for many of the same reasons.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-23 12:41 pm (UTC)
Either way it's a shot in the dark.

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[User Picture]From: heleninwales
2016-04-23 12:51 pm (UTC)
What exactly is it about the status quo that you don't like?

Personally I'm voting for staying in because the reasons for leaving seem dodgy to me. All the "red tape" that the Brexiters want to be rid of is actually very useful legislation protecting things like workers' rights and the environment. Also I don't trust Westminster to spend the money saved on the regions and I suspect we'd be worse off than we currently are. And finally I don't want us driven into the arms of the US because we're too small to make it alone. Remember that before we entered Europe, we had the remnants of our Empire/Commonwealth to support us. That's gone now.

Edited at 2016-04-23 12:51 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: porsupah
2016-04-23 12:55 pm (UTC)
Not to mention how very much of it turns out to be pure fabrication by the Flail and the like. The EU maintains quite an enlightening list of Euromyths, along the lines of a more specific Snopes, giving the headline/story, and the reality.
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[User Picture]From: porsupah
2016-04-23 01:06 pm (UTC)
Even without any other factors in play, the fact this has only become an issue because of Conservative in-fighting, one faction of which says "trust us! We'll do better on our own!", when the entire party stands for gutting human rights legislation, increasing surveillance, and limiting personal freedom of movement.. doesn't exactly lead me to trust that their vision of a better future has much in common with mine.

Then there's the huge uncertainty that exit would bring about, with a two year window for negotiating all replacement treaties with every member state. Businesses tend not to like uncertainties, let alone such a plethora thereof. Individuals too: what of British citizens living/working elsewhere in the EU? It's possible they'd be able to keep their jobs, or maybe not. I've been uprooted multiple times because legislation dictates I'm not free to remain where I was, once the job came to an end.

There's been a cry of the "undemocratic" nature of the EU Parliament - yet, there, I can place my vote in a way that ensures it's genuinely counted, rather than following the tragic FPTP system. (Ah, the sweet irony of the Conservatives decrying minority governments, only to scrape in with a coalition, and now another minority)
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-23 01:16 pm (UTC)
Yes, but uncertainty is what I'm going to be voting for.

And I know I may hate what such a vote will bring. It's a gamble- a high-risks gamble.

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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2016-04-23 02:41 pm (UTC)
One will see in the end how they gonna use which result comes out of that vote anyway. One also knows they're pretty good at ignoring peoples' will or voting as long as the desired result comes out...
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-23 03:16 pm (UTC)
This is so very true. Remember how the Irish had a referendum about the Euro and came up with the "wrong" result and were told to go back and try again?
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From: ibonus
2016-04-23 02:44 pm (UTC)
for sure
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[User Picture]From: davesmusictank
2016-04-23 07:58 pm (UTC)
I am with Chiara on this for similar reasons. Stay in with the devils you know etc.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-24 08:46 am (UTC)
And lock the door and throw away the key?
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[User Picture]From: veronica_milvus
2016-04-23 08:24 pm (UTC)
No, it's not brave, it is foolhardy. You will be throwing away so much of what British industry has worked for and gained over 40 years. What is the point of isolationism? This is not a poetic Sceptered Isle thing, it's about lives and jobs and peace and prosperity, and understanding and creating bridges with our neighbours.

You know better than this.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-24 08:50 am (UTC)
British industry doesn't seem to be in that good shape to me. What exactly is the EU doing to save our steel industry?

It's not as though we'll be pulling up the draw bridge. We'll still be part of Europe geographically and culturally- just not subject to the unelected bankers and technocrats of Brussels.
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[User Picture]From: qatsi
2016-04-23 08:55 pm (UTC)
I disagree with your decision - although the EU is far from perfect I trust it more than Westminster - but I do agree that there are fabrications on both sides.

As Paul Lewis put it on Twitter, "Remain predictions are inherently unprovable. Leave 'facts' often wrong." So what we're (both) doing is turning our backs on the information that's put in front of us, believing it all to be propaganda, and voting with our gut instincts. Hardly the best way to do things, is it?
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-24 08:53 am (UTC)
Call me an incorrigible romantic and obscurantist but going with my gut appeals to me.
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[User Picture]From: kishenehn
2016-04-24 03:32 am (UTC)
I'm just a mere American who doesn't get a vote, but I'm absolutely with you on this one ... and I'm a total leftist both economically and socially. The EU is far from the egalitarian community it pretends to be -- it's an old-fashioned empire, dominated by a couple of countries at the expense of everyone else. And that issue will just become more and more pronounced over time.

But the separation vote will fail, because that's what the EU oligarchy wants.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-24 08:57 am (UTC)
I agree with you on both counts.

I don't think we'll be allowed to cut free. On the other hand I'm expecting the EU to collapse of its own accord in the near future.
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[User Picture]From: serge_sagace
2016-04-24 03:53 am (UTC)
What do you think about Scotland, in case of leaving EU ?
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-04-24 09:04 am (UTC)
That's up to Scotland.

If Britain leaves the EU- which is a big if- I would expect Scotland to break away from the rest of Britain.
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