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Tony Grist

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Scots Whae Hae [Apr. 22nd, 2015|10:22 am]
Tony Grist
I'm thinking Scottish independence is inevitable now. The SNP looks set to sweep the country and all the established parties are going on about how the Nats mustn't be allowed to have any say in British as opposed to strictly national politics and how Nicola Sturgeon is the most dangerous woman in the world- thereby insulting and denigrating the Scots and making them even bolshier than they were before.  Personally, I'm not longer sure what the Union is meant to be for- and if the Scots want to live in a pocket sized socialist Utopia I don't see why they shouldn't (actually i rather fancy living in one of those myself.)  I think small nations are the future. We're seeing it all over; the empires and federations are under internal pressure- and likely to bust apart. I don't expect the UK to last out my lifetime- or the European Union. As for the United States and China as presently constituted, well, I'm pretty ignorant about conditions on the ground- but I keep getting these reports...
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Comments:
[User Picture]From: glitzfrau
2015-04-22 09:42 am (UTC)
Some empires are busting apart. Russia and Isis seem to be doing quite nicely at expanding, though :-(
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 09:54 am (UTC)
Don't see where Russia is expanding.
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[User Picture]From: glitzfrau
2015-04-22 09:54 am (UTC)
Crimea? Donetsk?
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 10:09 am (UTC)
Crimea was given as a present by Khrushchev in the 50s without asking anyone, a national referendum in the 90s after the breakdown of the USSR was canceled under mysterious circumstances and it was proclaimed from above "we belong to the Ukraine". Historically it belongs to Russia and what happened a year ago comes close for the first time what should have been already done about 25 years ago.
And Donetsk is something that started in the local population which saw itself going to be reigned by a government which hates their culture, their language, their actual and their felt national identity like poison.
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[User Picture]From: glitzfrau
2015-04-22 10:12 am (UTC)
Neither of your points above contradicts my assertion that Russia is expanding successfully, though.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 10:16 am (UTC)
It's rather: Things that once belonged to the Rus, where the Rus left its traces, find their way back to the origin they came from.
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[User Picture]From: glitzfrau
2015-04-22 10:17 am (UTC)
The historic Rus is not co-extensive with the modern Russian Federation, though. The current state is expanding.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 10:32 am (UTC)
It is not, but it is base part of modern Russia and a base part of Eastern Europe.
The Baltic states try to deny this, try to declare themselves to be Europe while they have only partly been European, and treat their Rus inheritage like unpleasant dirt as well as those people which were declared or which declare themselves to be part of this inheritage.
Ever heard of that people with a Russian passport which always lived in that area are 2nd class people there? They're not allowed to vote and they're treated like Non-citizens?
Ever heard of Nazi culture being more cherished in the Baltic states than the far longer routed Russian culture?
Ukraine tries to go the same way (again), but this time they meet local resistence on this way - maybe also due to the means the forces now in power also picked as getting into this power.
The resistence is the sign of a part of the population saying "our roots are in there and you can't take this out of us!"
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 10:08 am (UTC)
Yes, but- you could also view the rebels of eastern Ukraine and Isis as independence movements of sorts.
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[User Picture]From: glitzfrau
2015-04-22 10:14 am (UTC)
Really? The rebels of eastern Ukraine don't want a splinter state, they want federation with Russia, and equally ISIS wants a unitary caliphate with as large a remit as possible.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 10:30 am (UTC)
I think both views are possible. The reality on the ground is almost certainly messier than we have any means of knowing.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 10:20 am (UTC)
I don't know which part of the mind this association comes from, but the current Middle East situation somehow brings a recall of the Ottoman empire back into the mind.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 10:35 am (UTC)
The Ottoman Empire got smashed and the victorious powers divided its territories up in a highly unsatisfactory way. Heaven only knows what the Middle East will look like after the present wars have run their course.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 11:20 am (UTC)
Yeah, like reunion of this because of the reason that current borders are a product of European interference into territories they don't have an idea of during at least the last 100 years intensively (in the post-WWII time, also add the United States to it).
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2015-04-22 09:44 am (UTC)
An opinion I came across about those things and seperatism is: People have become too individual and they want to drift into too many different directions. The unions won't be able to hold this very much longer.
Regardless of that the whole national debt debate and how landscapes got run down over decades justified by this single reason surely is going to kick in to these tensions too, sooner or later.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 10:10 am (UTC)
I think we're entering a period of considerable global upheaval.
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[User Picture]From: michaleen
2015-04-22 09:55 am (UTC)
Bolshier: there's an unexpected one. I like it.

I don't expect the EU to last, either. I was very much in favor of the union, as an outsider, until it became clear that it really was just Germany trying to accomplish economically what they've twice failed to accomplish on the battlefield.

But the US? I don't know. It certainly doesn't look good these days, but the last time the white supremacists broke away it cost about a million lives, before it was over. The slave states have the same problems today they did back then, too: poverty and no meaningful industrial base. Assuming the Federal government wanted to preserve the union, the slavers would probably have to ally themselves with a foreign power -- as indeed they tried to do in the 1860s.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 10:27 am (UTC)
I was a supporter of the EU in the early days. Not so much any more.

Is the USA worth preserving in itself? I don't suppose I really understand why Lincoln didn't kiss the Southern States "goodbye" when they chose to secede.
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[User Picture]From: michaleen
2015-04-23 10:41 am (UTC)
I think the victims of the god-bothering white supremacists who want to secede deserve better than they would get. For that matter, I think they deserve better than the lot they have now. It's a question of human rights, or good vs evil, or whatever you want to call it.

As for Lincoln, perhaps he thought the state-sponsored buying and selling of human beings and the theft of their labor were bad things. Even if he did not, having a hostile nation on our southern border, one that would inevitably have become dependent upon Britain, was probably a bad thing.
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From: (Anonymous)
2015-04-22 11:09 am (UTC)

Hello

I think if there isn't any kind of substantial change to the Union - like federalism or devo max - then independence is inevitable because I think a lot of people who voted no, voted to have their cake and eat it. They won't be quite so amenable to the Union if they don't see the changes promised by the Westminster government.

(I joined LJ once and we said hello, but I've forgotten who I was, so hello again)
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2015-04-22 11:15 am (UTC)

Re: Hello

Hello again :)

I don't see why people would vote for anything less than full independence now. If I were a Scot I'd have completely lost patience with Westminster.
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[User Picture]From: arielstarshadow
2015-04-22 02:25 pm (UTC)
I hope it happens sooner rather than later, to be honest.

I keep hoping for the day when national boundaries are water instead of stone - and people can move where they wish, and prosper.

That said, I truly feel that our planet is rapidly reaching the point where the only way we can hope to solve global problems is with a truly global instead of national consciousness.

This might have something to do with being stymied all my life and unable to move across the pond.
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[User Picture]From: wyrmwwd
2015-04-22 07:36 pm (UTC)
A pocket sized socialist utopia sounds kinds of lovely to me.
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