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Tony Grist

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Nearly An Argument [Nov. 2nd, 2017|09:23 am]
Tony Grist
 Ailz was saying that when she was working in offices in the 1970s things went on that would now be interpreted as harassment but really weren't; a boss would lean over you, put a hand on your shoulder, help himself to a drag on your ciggie- and the guy she was particularly thinking about had been a tail gunner in Bomber Command and didn't know any better. An overfriendly boss, she said, was better than an officious one because you could give the overfriendly one an elbow in the ribs and he'd take it in good part.  And I was taking a hard line and saying sexual bullying is and always has been wrong. It was in danger of becoming an argument but we didn't want that so we left the past to stew in its own juice and agreed that whether morality is relative to time and place or Platonically absolute there's no doubt that powerful men taking advantage of their juniors is wrong now. We then went on to consider non-sexual bullying and agreed that that was wrong too but that it was going to be a while before behaving like Gordon Ramsey was considered completely unacceptable- and society still has a lot of growing up to do.

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Comments:
[User Picture]From: idahoswede
2017-11-02 11:06 am (UTC)
Agree with both of you. Personally, I never considered it having anything to do with sex if a male boss said, "That is a fetching blouse you are wearing." I said, "Thank you." or "I am quite fond of it myself". In the past, I have said to a boss, "I like your tie", does that mean I was inappropriate?

Personally I would love to see people like Gordon Ramsey slapped down a bit.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 11:23 am (UTC)
Yes, there's no harm in personal compliments- and if there's an agenda behind them I think you can tell.

A British politician is trembling on the brink of disgrace because he once brushed his hand against a girl's knee and later complimented her on a newspaper photograph in which she was wearing a corset. Is that harassment? I'm really not sure.

I dislike TV shows in which people are humiliated or set up to be laughed at- except of course if they happen to be politicians.
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[User Picture]From: heleninwales
2017-11-02 03:22 pm (UTC)
I suspect there's more to the allegations than just the Hand on the Knee incident. The woman concerned as said she wasn't bothered, so for him to resign so promptly probably means that there's worse behaviour that might come out and that May's government doesn't want to be associated with.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 03:35 pm (UTC)
I understand that Fallon himself has said that there are other things that might come to light.

The knee and corset man is Damian Green- who hasn't resigned and may not be guilty of anything else.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2017-11-02 11:23 am (UTC)
I got my troubles when people tell tales from the past and they had this more offensive (not meant in the way of "insulting someone") way to give ambivalent comments on each other and even accept this as some "normal tone of human interaction". You know, joining the choir, regarding this as compliments even.
And I don't say this from conservatism or being buttoned up, I just don't feel comfortable with it and it is like molesting to me in my personal boundaries.
When somebody feels like to give a sexual comment on me, I rather feel like wanting to let the fist speak from my instincts. Simply I don't like that shit.
But also I feel, when hearing these tales about past times, like wanting to despise people a lot 'cause it appears to me like "humans, this is ALL you've got to offer?!". You know, humans regarding themselves as the crown of creating and all that... And in the end, all they fucking primarily care about again is tits, asses and fertilizing each other. Just like some primitive apes do which don't know how to drive a car or invent a rocket, which just live in the forest and on the trees and are happy with it.
It makes you ask why did people want to come down from the trees at all, if they want to behave like those animals still? To me, the invention of machines doesn't make the superior or "better" creature.
In that point, I find every kind of sexual revolution that took place on both sides of Cold War failures. 'Cause, what did they bring? Yeah, "freedom", but what beside the "freedom"? It brought another source of distraction and obsession to the world. People rather care for naked boobs than talking seriously about how they want to live, if they want to be whipped everyday by anybody or if they pluck up the courage to say no and stop delivering new citizens to the machine that destroys them for a piece every day.
If that's what it could only achieve, then it truly is pathetic.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 11:33 am (UTC)
Sex is a very powerful force- and liable to make idiots of the best of us. I gather the young are both more lackadaisical about it and less obsessive about it than my generation was- well, good for them if it's true.


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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2017-11-02 12:08 pm (UTC)
Hm... If non-obsessed - well, I wouldn't put it like that.
But surely in a different level and in a different kind than past generations.
Still not my flavor even though.
And they have way much more other things to distract their minds...
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 12:37 pm (UTC)
Who needs sex when they've got Twitter?
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2017-11-02 12:48 pm (UTC)
Who needs sex, if you got energy drinks, energy drinks mixed with beer, music and political correctness?
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 03:36 pm (UTC)
Not much of a one for energy drinks, myself.
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[User Picture]From: matrixmann
2017-11-02 05:46 pm (UTC)
Hm, it's stuff that only ants love.
Fortunately the becoming popular of those things passed me.
Caffeine addiction with cola already is no fun, and I think, with these ones in the long-term effects on the health much, much lesser.
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[User Picture]From: pondhopper
2017-11-02 12:48 pm (UTC)
Now, from my perspective of age and experience, I can see clearly which episodes I experienced when I was working were and were not harassment. Back then, (and you and I and Ailz are fairly the same age), you just put up with the milder stuff, words, insinuations and such, not that it was comfortable but most was non-aggressive. Nowadays I think the pendulum is swinging in the other direction which is not a bad thing but yes, I agree with both of you on this. I also resorted to the elbow in the ribs and a bit of a go-away shove now and then and they were usually taken with good grace.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2017-11-02 03:50 pm (UTC)
People who grew up in that era were coping- and not always very well- with a fast-moving sexual revolution. The popular comedies of the time- the Carry On movies, the Benny Hill Show- are infused with a kind of sniggery unease. It had ceased to be clear where the boundaries were- and what was and what wasn't acceptable behaviour.
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[User Picture]From: pondhopper
2017-11-02 04:24 pm (UTC)
Oh, I agree completely!
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[User Picture]From: topum
2017-11-02 10:27 pm (UTC)
I am with you on this one.
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