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Tony Grist

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Please... [Nov. 9th, 2016|05:02 pm]
Tony Grist
Please, fellow liberals, less of the illiberality.

Try to understand why people who aren't liberals have voted the way they did. No-one is without reasons. No-one has a monopoly on virtue.

And please stop accusing Trump voters of racism and misogyny. It may be true of some. But not all by any means. Don't demonise your opponent. It just deepens the division.

Understand that this election was between two of the least popular candidates ever. There were good reasons for not supporting Hillary. Very good reasons.  Many will have voted for Trump as the lesser of two evils.

And try to rein in the fear and hysteria. Fear is disabling. You're only hurting yourselves.
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Comments:
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 07:01 pm (UTC)
I was impressed by both Trump's acceptance speech and Clinton's concession. The battle's over now. It's time to find common ground.
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[User Picture]From: heleninwales
2016-11-09 05:52 pm (UTC)
I have some American friends who truly have reason to fear a Trump presidency due to all the hatred he has called up against them, simply for who they are. If anything Pence is more of a threat than Trump. However, I do agree that, just as with Brexit, people voted for a mixture of reasons. I believe they were misguided and that they won't get what they've been promised, but I really wish the Democrats had fielded a better candidate. :(
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 07:06 pm (UTC)
Trump said some very inflammatory things- mainly at the beginning of the campaign when I don't think even he believed he'd win. The closer he got to victory the more statesmanlike he became. His acceptance speech was generous and conciliatory. As for what happens next we'll have to see.
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[User Picture]From: topum
2016-11-09 07:51 pm (UTC)
He said very inflammatory things, yes. And the media decided not to take it seriously but take it literally. The problem was that many people did the opposite: they did not take what he said literally but took it seriously.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 08:15 pm (UTC)
I think Trump's run at the presidency started out as a stunt. He expected to make a splash and get chucked out early. He said outrageous things thinking he'd never have to follow through on them.
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[User Picture]From: dorispossum
2016-11-09 07:19 pm (UTC)

Ironically the angry idiots who voted for Trump will probably suffer most when he tanks the economy - I doubt the rustbelt towns will survive the closing down of world trade.  It really is Brexit times a million (with guns!).  Here in UK, it's the run-down small towns who voted Brexit who suffer most from the slowdown and the loss of EU funding.  The 'metropolitan elite' in London that they voted to spite will do just fine - better educated, smarter and more adaptable, the metropolitans still have a lock on the wealth generating parts of the economy.  Likewise in USA: the skills of well-educated, smart liberals in New York and California will still be in demand.  But there won't be many jobs left in manufacturing if you can't sell abroad.  Possibly with government subsidies they might survive, but since Trump's about to destroy the tax base and plunge USA into a level of debt that makes the current trillions look like peanuts, there's little chance of that.  And without public money for schools,. their children can't go further.  Pitiful: but evolution in action.



Edited at 2016-11-09 07:30 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 08:17 pm (UTC)
If that happens he won't be the first "revolutionary" leader to give his followers false hope...
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[User Picture]From: topum
2016-11-09 05:57 pm (UTC)
I could not agree more. I would never vote Trump (ditto Hillary) but the "Hitler! Racists! Holocaust!" hysterics is ridiculous and embarrassing.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 07:09 pm (UTC)
I'm glad I didn't have a vote in this election. If I had done I'd probably have voted for one of the independent candidates.
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[User Picture]From: topum
2016-11-09 07:48 pm (UTC)
I would either vote for one of the independent candidates too or not at all. I would not be able to vote for either Hillary or Trump.

I find Hillary's supporters' ott hysterics that everyone around them is a racist homophobic bigot and holocaust is upon us disgusting though (this is actually one of the things that put Trump in the White House, people are tired of it). And the idea that Hillary lost because she is a woman is preposterous. Yeah, she lost because she is a woman...who is terrible at most things.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 08:25 pm (UTC)
Women have made it to the top job in many countries now. Angela Merkel is the single most powerful person in Europe. Here, in Britain, we're already on our second female Prime Minister. I don't see why a woman shouldn't become President of the USA too. All it will take is a candidate that the electorate can respect and like. Hillary just wasn't that woman.
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[User Picture]From: topum
2016-11-09 08:53 pm (UTC)
Exactly.
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[User Picture]From: haikujaguar
2016-11-09 09:30 pm (UTC)
*nods*
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[User Picture]From: browngirl
2016-11-12 06:35 am (UTC)
All right, if there are no bigots among Trump's supporters, who's doing all of these acts, then?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/countless-acts-of-hate-have-been-carried-out-since-trumps-win_us_5825ee38e4b02d21bbc86211

I really wish sometimes that in the United States we considered it worse to practice bigotry than to point out bigotry. But pointing out bigotry is considered "disgusting" while the acts detailed in the article above are considered wacky hijinks.
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[User Picture]From: topum
2016-11-12 01:24 pm (UTC)
It worse to practice bigotry than to point out bigotry in the US and have been for years.
I did not say that there were no bigots, do not know why decided to say that I was.
Yeah, we can twist someones words and do random links form both sides and claim that ours is all the evidence that is required and the other links are just flukes. But this is exactly the debating strategy that is not working anymore and that people are not buying anymore. And that's why we fucked up and ended up with Trump. Overexaggerating and demonising the other side, getting a couple of links and examples that suits us and and trying to shut up and shame the other side is not going to work. We need to get back to the drawing board, there is a lot of work to be done to undo this wave of right-wing tide sweeping not only the US but also Europe. And we are responsible for it and we need to look what we got wrong that so many people who voted for us are not buying our message anymore for some reason and not just write it all off on "Oh there are even more biggots than we thought and they are even more bigoted than we thought! Let's get even more outraged and shame more!". No let's work with people, even those that are not where we are at yet. I can bombard you with selected links too but this just isn't going to get anyone anywhere (this election is the proof).
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[User Picture]From: howlin_wolf_66
2016-11-09 06:08 pm (UTC)
I can understand it; doesn't mean I have to LIKE it.

... and just because they thought he was 'the lesser of two evils' doesn't mean they were right.

It is neither fear, nor hysteria - more akin to resigned cynicism.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-09 07:07 pm (UTC)
Resigned cynicism is fine.
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2016-11-09 09:18 pm (UTC)
There are very good reasons why we're frightened.

Because people kill us. It's nice that you don't have to be frightened. But don't say that the fear of people who are in danger is unjustified.
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[User Picture]From: redatt
2016-11-10 01:11 am (UTC)
Your fear is justified. People who put a cross next to Trump's name can dress it up any way they like, but the bottom line is Trump stated plainly a varity of racist (and other nasty) goals and that's what they validated. It is not hysterical, or demonising, or illiberal to call a racist act a racist act.
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2016-11-10 01:16 am (UTC)
I don't think Trump, himself, is necessarily a white supremacist, anti-semite, homophobe, or any of the rest of it.

I just know that he pandered to them, and has now emboldened them, and my gay, Latino, Asian, Black, transgender, and everything else friends are in danger, and once they get through those, they'll be coming for us Jews. Unless we head them off.
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[User Picture]From: redatt
2016-11-10 01:31 am (UTC)
He said the bad things. That is inherently racist, homopho etc. It matters not whether he was doing it more for expediency's sake or more because of deep rooted hatred of a particular group. He ran on those terms, on those stated aims. That too is a racist act, homophobic, etc act. It does not warrant being or deserve to be couched in terms of speculation about what Trump is or isn't deep down. It is what he chose to do.

He emboldened others, as you say, and that is frightening. I am deeply saddened by it and sorry for everyone directly affected. And I hope like mad no one's worse fears are realized.

Edited at 2016-11-10 01:33 am (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-10 08:54 am (UTC)
A lot of people who are in no particular danger are ramping up the fear too.

Fear is a natural human reaction to danger. Doesn't mean it's a good thing- or to be indulged.
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2016-11-11 12:50 pm (UTC)
And ignoring it is worse.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-11 02:29 pm (UTC)
It should be acknowledged. And confronted. And converted- where possible- into something more positive and energetic.

As Obama said (it was him, wasn't it?) "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
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[User Picture]From: xiphias
2016-11-11 07:55 pm (UTC)
Why do you think fear isn't positive or energetic?
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[User Picture]From: tagryn
2016-11-11 11:09 pm (UTC)
IMHO I think its certainly energizing - anyone who's had an adrenaline rush while afraid has experienced that - but pain and fear also narrows one's perspective...which is good if the situation really is a fight-or-flight one that requires quick decision making, but bad if wisdom and considered action is what's called for. We're fortunate in our society to rarely experience true life-or-death immediacy in our everyday lives, but the biomechanism is still there in our nervous system and brains, ready to be triggered.

I think that's also why appeals to fear and negative ads work so well - it makes the brain simplify things that are complex, regardless of whether the simplification is actually appropriate or not.
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[User Picture]From: poliphilo
2016-11-12 09:47 am (UTC)
I'm speaking from experience. Feat stops me from doing things I ought to do.
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